Cams and headwork (in english)

[Invité §bor078qm]

Hi,

 

It's been a while since my last post in here, but here I am with my "horrible" english questions..

 

I'm planning to put new camshafts into my 16V VTS (267/267 degree), and do some headwork (polish everyting etc.) and then reprogram the ecu. I also will fit the "admision", but I want to leve serial exhaust (those sport one are too loud). Maybe anyone of you tryed this solution? What horsepower should I get in this specification?

[Invité §fre401vw]

You want to leave all the exhaust system stock? At least you should try a decat IMO.

 

And don't polish everything. "Mirror" polish I mean. Not on intake "ducts". On exhaust ones it doesn't really matter I think.

 

Peter has (or maybe had) camshafts and so on with the standard exhaust system. Not sûre for the headwork. Worked pretty fine I was told. You may ask Arnaud91, rufus..

 

[Invité §ruf047QV]

I tried to understand what Freefree has told (not so simple).

 

Peter and Arnaud91 tried camshafts and leaved the standard exhaust system. Only Arnaud had the headwork.

(Now both of them have sport exhaust system )

 

Into my opinion you will loose some power but it will work pretty well (not optimised).

 

An issue is as said "the doctor freefree": only try a decat IMO with the rest of standard exhaust system (but your final exhaust my not stay alive for a long time).

Maybe the best between perfomance and noise is like i have done:.

decat + intermédiaire avec pare flamme (freefree je sais plus comment ça se traduit en anglais dans le texte) + homologed final exaust.

[Invité §fre401vw]

Je sais plus non plus pour l'inter. Le silencieux c'est back box je crois.

[Invité §bor078qm]

intermédiaire avec pare flamme - I guess You mean it is a part of an exhaust between decat pipe and back-box? Pare flamme - means anti-flame?

 

Anyway - do You think that I could achive about 150HP with this mods? cams, head and ecu reprog

 

BTW - What is faster - VTS or 206 S16? Cause my friend is going to buy this one http://www.auto.pl/common/bigimg.php?id=148519&b=o&nr=4 and I dont know should I be afraid of him

[Invité §fre401vw]

intermédiaire avec pare flamme - I guess You mean it is a part of an exhaust between decat pipe and back-box? Pare flamme - means anti-flame? [/quotemsg]

Exactly. We say pare-flamme. It's a muffler.

 

You may obtain about 150hp if it's well done. Arnaud91 had 144hp on our usual Rolling Road, with full stock exhaust and low cam profile (maybe 275°). But you need a good intake system.

 

VTS or first 206 S16 (with 185/55/15 wheels) have about the same performances, except at lower revs, where the 2.0 is understandably better.

 

But.. simply change intake and exhaust systems on the Saxo and it's definitely better. It's easier to gain power on the Saxo. And a good amount of mid-range torque with the decat and the intake.

 

[Invité §bor078qm]

So what cam profile is the best for a road use? 267° or 275° or maybe 300°? And what do You think about those FXR-Corp intakes for 88EUR?

 

Because I have 2 lambda sensor I want to put a sports-cat instead of decat. Or maybe You know the way how to avoid lambda problems after decat?

[Invité §fre401vw]

The 285° profiles from Piper Cams or Kent Cams seem to be a good balance, with good power but limited loss in low revs. The only thing is idle should be a little erratic. A good remap or chip is needed to truly exploit this type of cams. It compensates a good part of the loss at low revs, too.

 

The intake of FXR-Corp is perfect. You may change the filter, and isolate it a little to give it it's full potential, but it's not necessary. Don't buy it to them, they won't have any in stock for the moment. You may look on ebay, there are usually plenty of this intakes (named kosei, simotta, mulsanne, raceland..)

 

The lambda sensors are not a problem. The decat will light the engine-check led, but it doesn't change the performances. There's a topic on this forum with an electric device to shunt the 2e lambda sensor, if you are afraid of this (but no reason to).

 

[Invité §ruf047QV]

The doc is really good on that topic nothing else to say.

[Invité §bor078qm]

cant find those intakes on ebay... I've tryed on French and Polish one

 

Anyway thx for help. I hope I'll start my project during/after holidays, so I'll tell You what power gains do I achived.

 

One thing little OT but maybe You remember the topic about TU5J4 / TU5JP4 SWAP. Next week I will know what power gain do we achived. Car is fully standard so we will see how this 206 head works.

[Invité §ruf047QV]

U've done the head swap yet?

[Invité §bor078qm]

Well.. the swap is not on my car. My "mecanicien" has this head but the price he wanted for that head was too big for me to take a risk if it wont give any resonable power gain. So I found a volunteer... If it will give some good power for the money - I'll do it in my car

 

We are waiting for the new head gasket at the moment - I hope we'll get it on monday and then we are going on the dyno.

 

 

[Invité §ruf047QV]

U only put the standard 206 head or also modify this one?

[Invité §bor078qm]

Only standard one, the owner of this Saxo has no other choice - he's bought the car with "broken" head, and as we all know new one is very expensive, finding used one in Poland is impossible so he bought this 206 head but he have no money on modification. He'll be very happy if the car starts running propertly at last

[Invité §fre401vw]

Have they already put a VTS on that Dyno?

 

For the intake, you're right, none is available on ebay. You may try to find Raceland or Kosei dealers. The price is between 70€ to 90€.

 

[Invité §bor078qm]

Unfortunetly not.. It was broken from the day he've bought it. It's a 2002 model. It should have around 120-125HP, what You thnik?

[Invité §fre401vw]

This one ok, but another VTS? To see if we can compare the results with our own tests. Cause there are sometimes up to 10% difference between different dynos.

 

[Invité §bor078qm]

I know only a result of my friends group N Saxo VTS. With reprogramed ecu, headwork and new exhaust it hit 147HP

 

Here is another one VTS: with 259 cams, headwork and ecu remap

http://www.swiatek-tuning.com.pl/Z%20hamowni/saxo_vts.htm

 

I dont know any result of standard VTS. The one in which we are changing head wasnt tested onthe dyno, so it will be hard to compare results with or without 206 head. But as I've said I think that a 2002 model should have around 124HP.

[Invité §fre401vw]

I know only a result of my friends group N Saxo VTS. With reprogramed ecu, headwork and new exhaust it hit 147HP

Seems much to me. 147HP without the air intake! I know gr.n engines are often fully rebuilt, but this dyno seems a little optimistic.

 

[Invité §bor078qm]

Well, I dont know the second car - so posibly it might be too optimistic or somone forgot about some mods done to this car.

 

This group N car have everything standard exept ecu, exhaust and some headwork all done according to FIA regulations. And it's realy very very fast. I have seen the dyno tests so I know that there is no cheat in those 147HP The guy who owns this Saxo is my mechanician and he is regarded as one of the best Saxo/106 specialist in Poland. He's a magician

[Invité §fre401vw]

Well if this engine really gives 147hp, he is.

 

 

[Invité §bor078qm]

In my opinion it all depends from the engine. I have seen Saxo's wich work extremly well - mine - or cars like my mates. His 1997 VTS with shorter gear ratio can't keep up with me. Also here I've seen a topic with standard VTS with 125HP. So every VTS is different

[Invité §fre401vw]

From 122 to 129hp on our favorite dyno, for stock VTS. But 147hp without the intake! Count 7hp or more for it, often more than the full exhaust system.

 

The shorter ratio gives nothing without a higher limiter. You change the gears sooner, and then the stock saxo takes the advantage.

 

But if you look at the rolling road topic, none had such power with so little mods I think.

 

[Invité §bor078qm]

I see that You are sceptic about those horses But as You see theere are different dynos and cars. Maybe I could find somehow this dyno-chart so You could beliwe me.

You also should remember the fact that these 147HP are maximum power output so the rest of the power diagram looks different. I mean that maybe there is no power in lower revs but big gains in high.

[Invité §bor078qm]

The 285° profiles from Piper Cams or Kent Cams seem to be a good balance, with good power but limited loss in low revs. The only thing is idle should be a little erratic. A good remap or chip is needed to truly exploit this type of cams. It compensates a good part of the loss at low revs, too.

 

 

Do I need to change valve springs or something with such a cams?

 

[Invité §fre401vw]

Not on the 16v.

 

[Invité §bor078qm]

Today I have an ocasion to drive Saxo with 206 head, and I must say that I'm impressed. Engine bahaves more like 8V now.. there is much more torque in low revs and still lot of power in high. Unfortunetly the owner have no time to do the dyno test but we'll do them soon.

 

If You were interested we used: saxo cams, saxo inlet manifold (need to do new mounting holes) and 206 head gasket

[Invité §fre401vw]

Very interesting!

 

Could you get some pictures?

 

Have you tried against your VTS? That's the best way to see how the power is delivered.

[Invité §bor078qm]

Well we have not tryed yet because the owner is a "campagnard" and he said he has no time for racing

 

I'll get the pictures and dyno graph soon, because the car is not ready yet (have some problems with driveshafts) he'll come back to the garageand then we'll take the pics, go to dyno and do some road tests.

[Invité §ruf047QV]

206 head gasket[/quotemsg]

Full standard one?

 

What about the joint de culasse original one?

 

I'm wondering about the compression...

 

Freeace if u could traduct in english dans le texte thanks a lot.

[Invité §bor078qm]

Full standard one... it is thinner than the Saxo one

 

We havent check the compresion because we have no time, I have only seen this car for 7 minutes, and drive it for 2 minutes - and the owner took it from the garage... So there was no time for tests. But I hope we will get all the data as soon as possible.

 

I think that the compresison might change a little bit due to the fact that there is different piston shape in Saxo and 206.

 

BTW what is a proper compression for VTS?

[Invité §ruf047QV]

If i remember well it's 12 but not sure...

Edit it's false 12 is the volumetric ratio