Tricherie sur les polluants - Informations et répercussions

[vince33000]

Donc les mesures en Irl sont pour toi un coup monté et n'ont aucune valeur ?

Et pourtant ca va devenir la norme...

 

 

IRL et normes ?

 

Comment ça va se faire ?

 

Est ce le sujet du topic ?

[mtgxv]

 

Rien ne peut justifier les x40 ou x15...

 

Mais IRL n'est pas une norme...

 

Il faudra toujours un cycle de normalisation pour homologuer et comparer les véhicules...Cycle qui pourra toujours être détecté ou anticipé...À moins de le faire sur un plein complet, au même endroit, dans les mêmes conditions atmosphériques, avec le même conducteur (le Stig à du boulot à vie...) Etc...

 

Mais ça n'est pas le sujet sur ce topic il me semble ?

 

 

Non mais ... oui.

VW, homologation, triche, rejets, conséquences IRL, ...

 

Et puis c'est intéressant d'en parler et de participer à cette discussion ici ce matin même en se demandant si on est ou pas dans le sujet de ce topic, non ?

[ric vw]

 

Rien ne peut justifier les x40 ou x15...

 

Mais IRL n'est pas une norme...

 

Il faudra toujours un cycle de normalisation pour homologuer et comparer les véhicules...Cycle qui pourra toujours être détecté ou anticipé...À moins de le faire sur un plein complet, au même endroit, dans les mêmes conditions atmosphériques, avec le même conducteur (le Stig à du boulot à vie...) Etc...

 

Mais ça n'est pas le sujet sur ce topic il me semble ?

 

Du coup, si je te suis, le scandale n'a pas lieu d'être, puisque je te rappelle le scandale est dû à une difference entre le labo et l'Irl, bien avant la decouverte du logiciel.

[ric vw]

 

IRL et normes ?

 

Comment ça va se faire ?

 

Est ce le sujet du topic ?

 

Oui la norme va évoluer avec un test routier.

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wik [...] res_légers

[vince33000]

Oui la norme va évoluer avec un test routier.

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wik [...] res_légers

 

 

Intéressant.

J'ignorais que ce test était presque prêt.

Par contre je peux lire : " harmonisées au niveau mondial et devant être finalisées vers octobre 2015[1]."

 

Est ce que ça a été finalisé ?

 

Si c'est réellement mis en place à priori ça a l'air plutôt bien encadré

[mtgxv]

 

Intéressant.

J'ignorais que ce test était presque prêt.

Par contre je peux lire : " harmonisées au niveau mondial et devant être finalisées vers octobre 2015[1]."

 

Est ce que ça a été finalisé ?

 

Si c'est réellement mis en place à priori ça a l'air plutôt bien encadré

 

 

Bien entendu que c'est intéressant

 

... et bien des constructeurs vont devoir se remettre en question car ces tests ne pardonneront pas leur écarts "volontaires" entre comportement sur rouleaux et dans la vraie vie.

[ric vw]

On en parlait avant le scandale..

[ric vw]

 

Bien entendu que c'est intéressant

 

... et bien des constructeurs vont devoir se remettre en question car ces tests ne pardonnerons pas leur écarts "volontaires" entre comportement sur rouleaux et dans la vraie vie.

 

Oui exactement.

[gazton3]

 

Chez FCA tu as 22mn après chaque démarrage ou tu roules "clean". Chez d'autres entre X et y degré de température tu roules "clean".

Chez VW dès que tu touches le volant ou ferme ton capot ton système de dépollution se coupe...

Qui roule le + souvent "clean" tu crois?

 

Celui qui quand il roule sale produit 2 à 5x ce qu'il produit quand il roule propre par rapport à 15x, ça fait une belle différence.

[gazton3]

 

Les mesures IRL sont elles faites dans les conditions des tests normes ou après les 22mn ou en dehors de la plage de température ?

 

Relis le rapport de TE, tu auras les réponses à tes questions.

[gazton3]

 

IRL comme tu dis par exemple entre moi et mon épouse on a presque 2L/100km de différence avec le même véhicule à l'odb???

 

Ça veut dire quoi donc IRL? Ça dépend du conducteur, de son trajet, des conditions atmosphériques etc...

 

Les tests ont été fait avec une certaine rigueur scientifique afin de mesurer les véhicules...

 

C'est marrant on dirait que tu voudrais nier la réalité et ce qui est sorti des diverses études.

[gazton3]

http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen [...] 1791432942

 

Volkswagen TDI Owners Seem Mostly Happy About Their Dieselgate Software Fix

 

Earlier this month, the 2015 model year diesel Volkswagens were approved by the EPA and California Air Resources Board for an emissions software modification. Those fixes have now begun rolling out to customers, and while some first impressions by forum-goers indicate that the repair may make the cars more sluggish, overall sentiments actually seem pretty positive.

 

Owners were worried that, when VW came out with a fix for their polluting diesel cars, it would involve a huge decrease in fuel economy and acceleration. But based on initial thoughts from TDI Club Forum members, it looks like Phase 1 of the modification doesn’t do much to fuel economy, even if it might make the cars feel slightly slower.

 

First Impressions

 

The first person to write their impression of the fix was TDI Club user bowltr, who said he didn’t notice a difference in engine noise or fuel consumption, but that the car does now feel slower:

 

I do notice some performance issues. The car appears to be sluggish on the start. It also appears sluggish when going from 4th to 5th gear and from 5th to 6th. The pickup just didn’t seem to be the same to me..

The owner added:

 

On the start I have used the sport mode and that seemed relatively close to what it was before. Without the sport it definitely feels like like I’m hauling something.

The owner finished by admitting they’re still monitoring how the car drives (since he’s only driven it 150 miles since the fix), and that even though they would be disappointed if it remained sluggish, if the fuel economy remains they “can live with it.”

 

Then forum-goer bluebus chimed in with impressions of the recently-fixed TDI, saying:

 

Okay, so I just got back from picking up the car..I only managed to take a quick spin on the interstate and around town a little, but so far so good. I am not a car expert, by any means, but this is my daily driver, and from what I can tell, not too much has changed, and what has is actually better (a bit).

The owner went on to say that they actually noticed improved acceleration after the fix, writing:

 

One thing is it used to have a bit of lag from a stop that I had pretty much gotten used to. This lag now appears to be gone, and it seems to jump from first to second gear pretty quickly and smoothly now in D. It actually made it feel quicker off the line (this may be an illusion).

So this owner admits that the car may not actually be faster, and that it’s probably an illusion since they no longer has a “hesitation” when applying the throttle. roni024 attributes this improved acceleration to the gearbox being re-calibrated (but this owner expects the acceleration to return to normal—i.e. slower— after a bit of driving).

 

bluebus went on to say that, even if the car “felt” quicker off the line, it did appear a bit slower when trying passing maneuvers at highway speeds, admitting that he’d “need more time driving to be sure of this.” Sport mode, he said, feels the same.

 

As for fuel economy, so far so good:

 

It’s too soon to tell about the mpg, but the display is still giving me about the same average as before dropping it off. Hope this helps a little to those who are wondering.

Lastly, we have impressions from a user named throwaway, who agreed with both other users that acceleration in sport mode remained essentially the same, and—like bowltr—said acceleration in Drive seemed a bit slower, writing:

 

The car drives slightly different in D and almost imperceptibly different in S. By different I mean the car accelerates more smoothly, albeit slightly more slowly in D, simply more smoothly in S, and will auto-up-shift in M before the redline.

Based on “seat of the pants opinions,” this owner thinks the throttle response has changed significantly, requiring more pedal input to accelerate the car. It “feels like [power] is in the engine, it just takes slightly longer to get it to the wheels.”

 

As for the transmission calibration, the owner said the car shifts to higher gears sooner. Overall, this owner concludes that the “detuned” throttle and transmission doesn’t change the car that much, saying:

 

Does it feel like the same car? In D, 95% yes. In S, 98% yes, in M 99% yes... I’m perfectly happy with the results of the update. The changes are super minor in my untrained, subjective, inexpert, opinion. All in all, we think VW did a great job in putting a fix together for the gen 3s.

All in all, it seems like these three owners are reasonably content with the fix.

 

What VW Says The Fix Does To The Cars

 

Volkswagen admits that the changes to these 2015 model year VWs (equipped with the “generation 3" diesel engines), doesn’t bring pollution below federal emissions standards, but it does improve NOx pollution significantly without affecting performance.

 

Volkswagen says this first “phase” of the fix (owners will have to come back in early 2018 for the full fix), does not introduce significant changes to “fuel consumption, reliability, durability, vehicle performance, drivability, or other driving characteristics.”

 

It may, the automaker says, lead to a different engine tone, a change in cooling fan operation, a sport mode that shifts earlier, 1-14 percent higher Diesel Exhaust Fluid use, and an “improvement in throttle response, a smoother acceleration and improved driving experience.”

 

Based on the impressions above, VW’s claims seems mostly right, other than the sluggish driving bit. But those are just three early impressions, and we’ll need more data points and more time to really know how this fix changes vehicle drivability and fuel economy.

 

The Warranty Is Amazing

 

It’s worth mentioning that the warranty on these repaired cars is incredible. It covers the entire exhaust aftertreatment system including: “The Diesel Oxidation Catalyst, the Diesel Particulate Filter, the Selective Catalytic Reduction converter, the dosing injector and other Diesel Exhaust Fluid system components, the exhaust flap, and all sensors and actuators.”

 

Perhaps more crucially (because many TDI owners have issues with these parts), it also covers the entire fuel system, “including fuel pumps, high pressure fuel rail, fuel injectors, vibration damper, pressure control valve and all sensors and actuators.”

 

On top of that, the warranty applies to the EGR system, the turbocharger, the On-Board Diagnostic system, and a lot more.

 

And it’s a long warranty, too. VW says it spans defines the the greater of two options: 1) Your car reaches 11 years of age and 162,000 miles or 2) Five years or 60,000 miles (whichever comes first) from the date and mileage of the phase 1 fix.

 

When the phase 2 fix comes around, that five years and 60,000 miles will reset. So, yes, the buyback is a lucrative option, but the fix—with its promise of similar performance and milage, plus this warranty— looks pretty tempting as well.

 

There’s Still More To The Fix

 

Owners who took their cars to have the software-based “Phase 1" completed only got two-thirds of the available restitution cash (which varies between $5,100 and about $10,000). The other third of the money comes when owners take their cars in for “phase 2,” which will be available in early 2018, and will involve new hardware such as:

 

Diesel Particulate Filter, Diesel Oxidation Catalyst, and Selective Catalytic Reduction Converter...NOx sensor and corresponding software to improve the performance of the OBD system.

VW says Phase 2 isn’t expected to affect fuel economy or performance either, but we’ll see how it all shakes out when the hardware starts going into cars next year.

 

A fix for the other approximately 400,000 vehicles has yet to be approved.

 

Have you gotten your TDI fixed? How did it go for you? Let us know at tips@jalopnik.com.

[Invité §Lau620QA]

Une fraude au niveau d'un Etat, oui on peut en parler, mais pour un particulier, c'est quoi le problème?

 

 

Achat d'un produit qui a truqué l'homologation et qui n'a donc pas le droit d'être vendu ...

[ric vw]

 

Achat d'un produit qui a truqué l'homologation et qui n'a donc pas le droit d'être vendu ...

 

L'homologation a été retiré avant la procédure ?

[ric vw]

Donc tu disais ?

[Invité §Lau620QA]

Les mesures en IRL semblent dire le contraire... Merci de ne pas désinformer.

 

Volkswagen, c'est plus de 4 millions de diesels sales, le record en Europe !

 

 

http://ds1.static.rtbf.be/article/image/1240x800/8/3/9/edbed85beae851031be64cddacf855ee-1474283868.jpg

[ric vw]

Volkswagen, c'est plus de 4 millions de diesels sales, le record en Europe !

 

 

http://ds1.static.rtbf.be/arti [...] 283868.jpg

 

Avec quelle quantité de rejet ?

Faut mieux 4 millions à 4X la norme europeenne, ou 3.5 millons à 10X la norme.

Je te laisse faire le calcule.

[Invité §Lau620QA]

Tout à fait vrai

 

... et bien plus proches des vraies conditions que des tests optimisés (plus ou moins par certains) sur rouleaux en laboratoire.

 

 

Ok donc on ne parle pas des valeurs theoriques, ni des valeurs en Irl, pourtant c'est bien le problème de base du scandale, non ?

 

 

 

Vous devriez parler de tout cela sur le sujet approprié plutôt que de flooder ici !

 

Cycle d'homologation - théorie, optimisations et réalité

[ric vw]

 

tu devrais parler de tout cela sur le sujet approprié !

 

Cycle d'homologation - théorie, optimisations et réalité

 

C'est quoi la base de l'affaire VW. Une difference entre le labo et l'irl, non ?

[Invité §Lau620QA]

 

IRL et normes ?

 

Comment ça va se faire ?

 

Est ce le sujet du topic ?

 

 

En effet, ce n'est pas le sujet !

[ric vw]

Pourquoi le cycle est reformé à ton avis.

[gazton3]

 

Achat d'un produit qui a truqué l'homologation et qui n'a donc pas le droit d'être vendu ...

 

Avec l'entière complaisance de ceux qui doivent appliquer la loi, c'est d'ailleurs pour ça que l'Europe poursuit les Etats.

[lipton78]

 

Chez FCA tu as 22mn après chaque démarrage ou tu roules "clean". Chez d'autres entre X et y degré de température tu roules "clean".

Chez VW dès que tu touches le volant ou ferme ton capot ton système de dépollution se coupe...

Qui roule le + souvent "clean" tu crois?

 

 

Toujours vw! vu qu une vw semble polluer 7 fois moins qu une fiat. En resumé et en grossisant le trait que si tu fais 100km en fiat ou 700 km en vw tu auras generé la meme quantité de polluants

[mtgxv]

Volkswagen, c'est plus de 4 millions de diesels sales, le record en Europe !

 

 

http://ds1.static.rtbf.be/arti [...] 283868.jpg

 

 

Encore ton amalgame entre triche et quantité

 

Avec quelle quantité de rejet ?

Faut mieux 4 millions à 4X la norme europeenne, ou 3.5 millons à 10X la norme.

Je te laisse faire le calcule.

 

 

[mtgxv]

 

Achat d'un produit qui a truqué l'homologation et qui n'a donc pas le droit d'être vendu ...

 

 

Et quid de l'achat d'un produit qui truque les émissions dans la vraie vie ? (valable aussi pour VW au cas où tu me rappellerai que ce n'est pas le topic )

[gazton3]

 

 

Vous devriez parler de tout cela sur le sujet approprié plutôt que de flooder ici !

 

Cycle d'homologation - théorie, optimisations et réalité

 

Pourquoi tu nous mets alors un graphique avec les millions de sales Renault, Peugeot,...?

[mtgxv]

http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen [...] 1791432942

 

Volkswagen TDI Owners Seem Mostly Happy About Their Dieselgate Software Fix

 

Earlier this month, the 2015 model year diesel Volkswagens were approved by the EPA and California Air Resources Board for an emissions software modification. Those fixes have now begun rolling out to customers, and while some first impressions by forum-goers indicate that the repair may make the cars more sluggish, overall sentiments actually seem pretty positive.

 

Owners were worried that, when VW came out with a fix for their polluting diesel cars, it would involve a huge decrease in fuel economy and acceleration. But based on initial thoughts from TDI Club Forum members, it looks like Phase 1 of the modification doesn’t do much to fuel economy, even if it might make the cars feel slightly slower.

 

First Impressions

 

The first person to write their impression of the fix was TDI Club user bowltr, who said he didn’t notice a difference in engine noise or fuel consumption, but that the car does now feel slower:

 

I do notice some performance issues. The car appears to be sluggish on the start. It also appears sluggish when going from 4th to 5th gear and from 5th to 6th. The pickup just didn’t seem to be the same to me..

The owner added:

 

On the start I have used the sport mode and that seemed relatively close to what it was before. Without the sport it definitely feels like like I’m hauling something.

The owner finished by admitting they’re still monitoring how the car drives (since he’s only driven it 150 miles since the fix), and that even though they would be disappointed if it remained sluggish, if the fuel economy remains they “can live with it.”

 

Then forum-goer bluebus chimed in with impressions of the recently-fixed TDI, saying:

 

Okay, so I just got back from picking up the car..I only managed to take a quick spin on the interstate and around town a little, but so far so good. I am not a car expert, by any means, but this is my daily driver, and from what I can tell, not too much has changed, and what has is actually better (a bit).

The owner went on to say that they actually noticed improved acceleration after the fix, writing:

 

One thing is it used to have a bit of lag from a stop that I had pretty much gotten used to. This lag now appears to be gone, and it seems to jump from first to second gear pretty quickly and smoothly now in D. It actually made it feel quicker off the line (this may be an illusion).

So this owner admits that the car may not actually be faster, and that it’s probably an illusion since they no longer has a “hesitation” when applying the throttle. roni024 attributes this improved acceleration to the gearbox being re-calibrated (but this owner expects the acceleration to return to normal—i.e. slower— after a bit of driving).

 

bluebus went on to say that, even if the car “felt” quicker off the line, it did appear a bit slower when trying passing maneuvers at highway speeds, admitting that he’d “need more time driving to be sure of this.” Sport mode, he said, feels the same.

 

As for fuel economy, so far so good:

 

It’s too soon to tell about the mpg, but the display is still giving me about the same average as before dropping it off. Hope this helps a little to those who are wondering.

Lastly, we have impressions from a user named throwaway, who agreed with both other users that acceleration in sport mode remained essentially the same, and—like bowltr—said acceleration in Drive seemed a bit slower, writing:

 

The car drives slightly different in D and almost imperceptibly different in S. By different I mean the car accelerates more smoothly, albeit slightly more slowly in D, simply more smoothly in S, and will auto-up-shift in M before the redline.

Based on “seat of the pants opinions,” this owner thinks the throttle response has changed significantly, requiring more pedal input to accelerate the car. It “feels like [power] is in the engine, it just takes slightly longer to get it to the wheels.”

 

As for the transmission calibration, the owner said the car shifts to higher gears sooner. Overall, this owner concludes that the “detuned” throttle and transmission doesn’t change the car that much, saying:

 

Does it feel like the same car? In D, 95% yes. In S, 98% yes, in M 99% yes... I’m perfectly happy with the results of the update. The changes are super minor in my untrained, subjective, inexpert, opinion. All in all, we think VW did a great job in putting a fix together for the gen 3s.

All in all, it seems like these three owners are reasonably content with the fix.

 

What VW Says The Fix Does To The Cars

 

Volkswagen admits that the changes to these 2015 model year VWs (equipped with the “generation 3" diesel engines), doesn’t bring pollution below federal emissions standards, but it does improve NOx pollution significantly without affecting performance.

 

Volkswagen says this first “phase” of the fix (owners will have to come back in early 2018 for the full fix), does not introduce significant changes to “fuel consumption, reliability, durability, vehicle performance, drivability, or other driving characteristics.”

 

It may, the automaker says, lead to a different engine tone, a change in cooling fan operation, a sport mode that shifts earlier, 1-14 percent higher Diesel Exhaust Fluid use, and an “improvement in throttle response, a smoother acceleration and improved driving experience.”

 

Based on the impressions above, VW’s claims seems mostly right, other than the sluggish driving bit. But those are just three early impressions, and we’ll need more data points and more time to really know how this fix changes vehicle drivability and fuel economy.

 

The Warranty Is Amazing

 

It’s worth mentioning that the warranty on these repaired cars is incredible. It covers the entire exhaust aftertreatment system including: “The Diesel Oxidation Catalyst, the Diesel Particulate Filter, the Selective Catalytic Reduction converter, the dosing injector and other Diesel Exhaust Fluid system components, the exhaust flap, and all sensors and actuators.”

 

Perhaps more crucially (because many TDI owners have issues with these parts), it also covers the entire fuel system, “including fuel pumps, high pressure fuel rail, fuel injectors, vibration damper, pressure control valve and all sensors and actuators.”

 

On top of that, the warranty applies to the EGR system, the turbocharger, the On-Board Diagnostic system, and a lot more.

 

And it’s a long warranty, too. VW says it spans defines the the greater of two options: 1) Your car reaches 11 years of age and 162,000 miles or 2) Five years or 60,000 miles (whichever comes first) from the date and mileage of the phase 1 fix.

 

When the phase 2 fix comes around, that five years and 60,000 miles will reset. So, yes, the buyback is a lucrative option, but the fix—with its promise of similar performance and milage, plus this warranty— looks pretty tempting as well.

 

There’s Still More To The Fix

 

Owners who took their cars to have the software-based “Phase 1" completed only got two-thirds of the available restitution cash (which varies between $5,100 and about $10,000). The other third of the money comes when owners take their cars in for “phase 2,” which will be available in early 2018, and will involve new hardware such as:

 

Diesel Particulate Filter, Diesel Oxidation Catalyst, and Selective Catalytic Reduction Converter...NOx sensor and corresponding software to improve the performance of the OBD system.

VW says Phase 2 isn’t expected to affect fuel economy or performance either, but we’ll see how it all shakes out when the hardware starts going into cars next year.

 

A fix for the other approximately 400,000 vehicles has yet to be approved.

 

Have you gotten your TDI fixed? How did it go for you? Let us know at tips@jalopnik.com.

 

 

De bons retours donc en ce qui concerne les mises à jours on dirait ... c'est bien.

 

L'extension de garantie sur certains organes ... c'est encore mieux

[mtgxv]

Pourquoi tu nous mets alors un graphique avec les millions de sales Renault, Peugeot,...?

 

 

Le graphique est HS, c'est pas faux ... mais je pense que c'était juste pour illustrer sa théorie du pire par le nombre.

[Invité §Lau620QA]

 

Et quid d'un achat d'un produit qui truque les émissions dans la vraie vie ?

 

 

[vince33000]

 

De bons retours donc en ce qui concerne les mises à jours on dirait ... c'est bien.

 

L'extension de garantie sur certains organes ... c'est encore mieux

 

 

Cette extension de garantie est même hallucinante...garantie de 11ans sur un diesel (ou +5 ans par rapport au Fix)

 

Ils sont sacrément bien négocié les américains...

[mtgxv]

 

 

 

Fais gaffe ... l'obsessionnel ne donne rien de bon

 

A part ça, une réponse à la question posée ?

[mtgxv]

 

Cette extension de garantie est même hallucinante...garantie de 11ans sur un diesel (ou +5 ans par rapport au Fix)

...

 

 

Bien vu en effet ... tant mieux pour les clients.

[Invité §shu041Vl]

 

Fais gaffe ... l'obsessionnel ne donne rien de bon

 

A part ça, une réponse à la question posée ?

 

non , il a pas de réponse , hormis qu'il trouve normal qu'une Renault ou une fiat pollue 5 fois plus qu'une vw en dehors du banc -test labo utac

 

qui n'a rien à voir avec les vrais conditions, on peux parler de test fictif ou virtuel , formidable utac

[Invité §luc268By]

 

Cette extension de garantie est même hallucinante...garantie de 11ans sur un diesel (ou +5 ans par rapport au Fix)

 

Ils sont sacrément bien négocié les américains...

 

 

 

Les Chinois avaient obtenu 10 ans sur la dsg...

 

En Europe nada...

[Invité §shu041Vl]

les chinois roulent en essence ,eux